Universal Disk Format (UDF) Beta Chat Transcript (September 01, 2006)

Chat Topic: Live Chat on Universal Disk Format
Date: Friday, September 01, 2006



Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
 Welcome to today’s chat with the Universal Disk Format (UDF) team.  We will try to answer as many questions as we can today. Participants should type their questions, select the “Ask the experts” check box, and click “Send.” Those posts will go into a private queue, from which our experts will draft answers and repost questions in the upper window with their answers. (To confirm: if you selected the “Ask the experts” check box when you posted, you don’t need to resubmit.  

 

At this time, I’ll let the experts introduce themselves.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Good morning, everyone!  My name is Wendy and I’ll be your host for today’s chat.  Exits are located over the wing and at the rear of the plane.  We’ll begin our beverage service shortly.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
I’m the SDET for the UDF Live Filesystem. I ensure that everything works as expected.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Senthil I’m the Program Manager for the UDF live filesytem. I work with the dev and test team to design new features and make sure that the end user inputs are addressed.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is UDF Live something you made up for Vista, or was it a preexisting technology?
A: UDF Universal Disk Format (UDF) is a file system specification defined by OSTA that is not proprietary and owned by one company. MSFT UDF Live File system is Microsoft’s implementation of that specification.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
I’m Tony, a Program Manager in the Windows Optical Platform Group, responsible for IMAPIv2 (Mastered Burning).

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the UDF format only for optical discs?
A: UDF was initially designed to work for optical media, but it also works for other removable media such as flash media and harddrives.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the UDF usable on DL layer media?
A: Yes. UDF is the file system that can be used on different types of media including DL. The current DL technology is limited to R and RW spec is being finalized.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Will the UDF format work without differences for 32 and 64 bit systems?
A: No.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Should have added x86
A: Can you expand on the question?

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tried UDF on 5472. Got 0 out of 5, w/3 BSD. New LiteOn  DvD Burner. Perfect ISO’s w/ dvdburn. What now?
A: We have seen problems with specific hardware. We have addressed a lot of these issues and RC1 release will be much more stable..

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony: so its your fault we don’t have image burning in the shell? (sorry, someone was going to ask if I didn’t :P)
A: We continue to evaluate adding native ISO burning support as part of Vista.  Unfortunately, the feature is not part of this pending Vista Client release; however, we continue to evaulate other options.  This is an important feature to add to Vista, and you will see progress in this area in the near future.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
OT:  I just heard back from the Connect team that they can repro the NG issue and have escalated as a Pri 1.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When a disk is inserted it is automaticaly formatted. Can it be used later for an ISO image?
A: Rewritable media (CD-RW, DVD+/-RW) can be erased and reused for any other purpose, such as ISO images.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: could I format my hard drive with UDF? Is their a way to do this in Vista?
A: Formatting your harddrive through the shell is not supported, but you can open a command-prompt and use format.com to format it.  For example:   format X: /fs:udf  where X: is your driveletter

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What and when will be the next generation of optical device/media and is UDF part of it?
A: There is DL DVD RW, HD DVD, Blue Ray and in the future Holographic media that all will work with UDF.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony: I would like to see the ability to mount an ISO nativly more then to burn an ISO
A: Yes, I am in support of seeing native ISO burning, mounting as part of the Vista User Experience.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony: I would like to see the ability to mount an ISO nativly more then to burn an ISO
A: We are actively looking at ISO related features into Vista, but we’re focusing on releasing Vista first with a solid Optical Burning experience, we work very closely with the UDF team to ensure a consistent burning story for both Live FS (UDF) and Mastered (IMAPI)

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When a disk is inserted it is automaticaly formatted. Can it be used later for an ISO image?
A: Once a disc is explicitly formatted as UDF (This is not automatic) It cannot be reused as an ISO through existing UI.  Unless it is an RW disc.  If it is an RW disc, it can be erased and used over.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: good morning all
A: konnichiwa

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: the problem that you (MS) have seen do they corrolate with the problems we have seen burning the media at too hi a speed?
A: Yes, we do know of problems with high speed media on certain devices due to device issues. We are working witht the OEM’s to see if we can address these..

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What are expectations on new holographic discs?
A: This is way out in the future..it will unfold in the next 3 years. Lots of storage space..

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
For those just joining us, today’s chat is with the Universal Disk Format (UDF) team.  To post a question, please type your question, select the “Ask the experts” check box, and click “Send.”

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When formatting my ‘time to complete’ indicator is very erratic, sometimes reversing itself. Is this a software or hardware problem?
A: Which build?. Can you repost your question when you reply so that we can identify the thread..

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
A: Hi this is Ravinder. I am a developer in the file system & storage group dealing with personnal storage and UDF falls in that category.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: If Roxio or Nero has been used to put data on a CD-RW or DVD-RW does the CD need to be reformatted before UDF will write to it?
A: No this is not necesarry.  UDF is an open standard designed for maximum interoperability.  We have done interop testing in the past and everything worked fine.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: DVD+R uses UDF 1.02, DVD-VR / DVD-R / DVD-RW / DVD-RAM use UDF 2.00 and BluRay uses UDF 2.50 and 2.60, so whats the advantages / differences for Vista / advantages?
A: 1.02 First revision, suitable for read-only media

1.50  Support write once media and defect management on media

2.00  Support named streams

2.01  Fix minor errors

2.50   Support metadata partition for better performance

2.60  Support pseudo-overwrite partition

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: So what are the differences in the UDF Format for 32 and 64 bit systems?
A: There is no difference for 32 / 64 bit UDF implementaitons

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Could you elaborate on the differences between x86 and x64 implementations (going back to question 3)?
A: There is none.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I am not used to using an in the box disk writer. Is a disk written on a Vista machine readable without software on another box>?
A: Yes, CDs/DVDs created on Vista machines will be readable on other PCs without special software.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Whose code is being used for UDF and Mastered. Is it Roxio, someone else’s or all MSFT?
A: Native Microsoft implementation completely..

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: If you have an existing CD-RW how can you tell if it is compatable with UDF for adding additional files?
A: When you insert the media all your files will simply show up in explorer.  You can drag and drop new files to it.  If for some reason the CD-RW does not conform to the UDF specification you’ll get the option of running chkdsk and fixing problems.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: With 64 bit version I had a lot of troubles as my writing device gets out of the device manager. Has it been fixed in a later build?
A: There were some issues that we did address in the recent RC1 builds. You can try out the latest build. Another option is to check if there is a firmware update available for your drive.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is ther a utility that quickly tells me if my drive will support each of the following types of media CD-R CD -RW CD + R CD +RW DVD -R DVD -RW DVD + R And DVD + RW
A: None exists inbox, but we might think of shipping some tool as a download or in a later release.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Iin the live meeting, microsoft’s image mounting powertoy was mentioned as an alternative for image support in the shell. This doesn’t actually work in the latest BT release.
A: Why image are you trying to mount? ISO9660 or UDF? There were some issues with mounting UDF with the image mounting powertoy which will be resolved soon.


Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: If in the future, WinFS or a derivative using its technologies (or just any metadata-rich FS) gets put in to Windows, will the metadata on UDF 2.50 disks be usable? How about on currently existing metadata-rich filesystems?
A: Yes, UDF is like any other filesystem and any metadata FS will be able to work with UDF.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is ther a utility that quickly tells me if my drive will support each of the following types of media CD-R CD -RW CD + R CD +RW DVD -R DVD -RW DVD + R And DVD + RW
A: there’s currently no such tool.  We are considering releasing something like this in the future as a powertoy.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What’s new in UDF 2.6? Do you expect to upgrade? Will you continue to upgrade or will 2.5 remain static in Vista? Will WXP be upgraded to UDF 2.5?
A: XP read capability will be upgraded to UDF 2.50 shortly after Vista is released. UDF 2.60 is targetted for BD-R media only and does not affect any other media type.

CORRECTION August 2008: currently there is no plans to add UDF 2.5 read support for XP.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: does UDF in vista support overburning?
A: No.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: does UDF in vista support overburning?
A: No, we do not support overburning in Vista.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: you said for live file system to be read in older ROM devices you should click “Eject” in the OS to close the session – if you just open the drive using the physical button is there a hook in the OS to trigger the session close? or do I have to remember…
A: Yes, there is.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Does either -R or +R work best with UDF?
A: Both -R and +R work equally well.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
A: Regd 32/64 bit difference..The specification doesn’t make any distinctions based on the platform that is using the technology..

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: Does UDF in Vista support Blu Ray disks or HD-DVD?
A: Full aupport being added – lack of hardwre however is making it difficut for us to test themn

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Would it be correct to compare DVD-RAM with UDF as both standards seem to have the same functionality, except UDF is a more open standard, unlike discs / hardware that only work with DVD-RAM?
A: DVD-RAM is just a media. UDF is the underlying file system that is used to store data on it.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: (OT?): Could firmware updates be delivered through Windows Update for better burning support?
A: I don’t think this is currently supported. But we, the UDF team,  would like to see this happen..

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Per Q:4  will an HD that has been formatted for UDF need to be reformatted after the HD is full to copy new files, or can files be deleted individually?
A: It is possible to delete files on a harddrive to free up space so you can copy new files to the drive.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: can i read nero incd disk ?, and can i write on this without new format ?
A: Yes for both

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: If I install a + RW media in a device that only supports – RW media should I quickly get a message that my Grandmother could understand that explains I am using the wrong type of media?
A: Nope.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: All of the VISTA downloads are ISO and most of the downloads on MSDN are ISO, How can I use VISTA to create a CD from an ISO File?
A: Burning an ISO natively is not part of Vista, as of ye